1 00:00:11,860 --> 00:00:09,520 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:13,629 --> 00:00:11,870 with Ian McCormick about his distinctly 3 00:00:15,369 --> 00:00:13,639 Christian interpretation of the 4 00:00:17,650 --> 00:00:15,379 near-death experience phenomena 5 00:00:20,170 --> 00:00:17,660 I asked all sorts of questions and 6 00:00:22,450 --> 00:00:20,180 received every answer I asked what 7 00:00:24,970 --> 00:00:22,460 religion is the correct one they told me 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:24,980 I didn't have to choose here's a better 9 00:00:27,970 --> 00:00:26,330 one I want to I want to read you two 10 00:00:29,529 --> 00:00:27,980 more of these and you can even have 11 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:29,539 reference to their the scripture save 12 00:00:32,529 --> 00:00:31,010 and if a being if not would come to you 13 00:00:34,630 --> 00:00:32,539 and speak anything to Christ respond 14 00:00:36,580 --> 00:00:34,640 Lucifer himself and come as of being a 15 00:00:38,650 --> 00:00:36,590 client do you really want to go there do 16 00:00:41,260 --> 00:00:38,660 you really want to say someone else who 17 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:41,270 died like you did clinically had this 18 00:00:45,729 --> 00:00:43,489 spiritually transformative experience 19 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:45,739 that changes their life just like yours 20 00:00:49,930 --> 00:00:47,690 did do you not really want to bring 21 00:00:51,639 --> 00:00:49,940 Lucifer and Satan into it and say oh but 22 00:00:53,650 --> 00:00:51,649 those people are being deceived and I'm 23 00:01:05,090 --> 00:00:53,660 not stay with us 24 00:01:08,969 --> 00:01:07,410 welcome to skeptical where we explore 25 00:01:11,609 --> 00:01:08,979 controversial science with leading 26 00:01:13,770 --> 00:01:11,619 researchers thinkers and their critics 27 00:01:16,530 --> 00:01:13,780 I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this 28 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:16,540 episode of skeptic oh I'm going to kind 29 00:01:20,580 --> 00:01:18,130 of go out a sequence here you know I do 30 00:01:23,070 --> 00:01:20,590 these interviews and then I put them in 31 00:01:26,190 --> 00:01:23,080 the queue and publish them but this week 32 00:01:27,780 --> 00:01:26,200 I'm going to do an interview that I just 33 00:01:30,149 --> 00:01:27,790 recorded last week and the reason I'm 34 00:01:32,850 --> 00:01:30,159 going to push it in here is because it 35 00:01:36,300 --> 00:01:32,860 fits perfectly with last episodes 36 00:01:39,060 --> 00:01:36,310 interview with Pastor Howard storm on 37 00:01:41,070 --> 00:01:39,070 his Christian near-death experience I 38 00:01:42,870 --> 00:01:41,080 have to say this is a topic that I'm 39 00:01:45,990 --> 00:01:42,880 very interested in because I think it 40 00:01:49,310 --> 00:01:46,000 touches on an area of the near-death 41 00:01:52,499 --> 00:01:49,320 experience that few are willing to fully 42 00:01:55,469 --> 00:01:52,509 explore and fully try and comprehend the 43 00:01:58,529 --> 00:01:55,479 meaning of and that is what about people 44 00:02:02,399 --> 00:01:58,539 who have near-death experiences that are 45 00:02:04,380 --> 00:02:02,409 very distinctly religious in some way 46 00:02:06,990 --> 00:02:04,390 what are we to make of those given the 47 00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:07,000 fact that the near-death experience 48 00:02:12,089 --> 00:02:09,910 literature consistently over and over 49 00:02:14,970 --> 00:02:12,099 again tells us that those kind of 50 00:02:17,910 --> 00:02:14,980 religious interpretations just don't 51 00:02:19,949 --> 00:02:17,920 come through in the data as a whole I 52 00:02:23,430 --> 00:02:19,959 think it's an interesting question and 53 00:02:25,350 --> 00:02:23,440 it's one I certainly enjoyed probing 54 00:02:28,589 --> 00:02:25,360 with today's guests 55 00:02:31,650 --> 00:02:28,599 Ian mcCormick today we welcome Ian 56 00:02:33,660 --> 00:02:31,660 McCormick to skeptic Oh Ian was diving 57 00:02:36,420 --> 00:02:33,670 off of the Mauritius islands in the 58 00:02:39,270 --> 00:02:36,430 Indian Ocean when he was stung by box 59 00:02:42,180 --> 00:02:39,280 jellyfish and was pronounced clinically 60 00:02:44,850 --> 00:02:42,190 dead only to return with an amazing 61 00:02:49,110 --> 00:02:44,860 account of his near-death experience and 62 00:02:50,550 --> 00:02:49,120 his encounter with God in Jesus Ian has 63 00:02:53,490 --> 00:02:50,560 written a book about his experience 64 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:53,500 titled a glimpse of eternity he also has 65 00:02:58,140 --> 00:02:55,450 a very interesting movie out based on 66 00:03:02,880 --> 00:02:58,150 his experience you can find all that at 67 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:02,890 a glimpse of eternity org or on YouTube 68 00:03:08,369 --> 00:03:05,170 where I found some really well done 69 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:08,379 interesting videos with Ian in them so 70 00:03:13,740 --> 00:03:10,930 in welcome to skeptic oh thanks so much 71 00:03:16,820 --> 00:03:13,750 for joining me now to join 72 00:03:19,050 --> 00:03:16,830 well I appreciate you coming on because 73 00:03:21,060 --> 00:03:19,060 frankly I really thought I'd scare you 74 00:03:24,690 --> 00:03:21,070 off with some of those questions that I 75 00:03:27,410 --> 00:03:24,700 asked in my email so I'm glad you're 76 00:03:30,180 --> 00:03:27,420 here you had this very amazing 77 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:30,190 near-death experience I guess that's 78 00:03:35,010 --> 00:03:31,930 probably where we should start 79 00:03:38,660 --> 00:03:35,020 tell people maybe the shortened 80 00:03:41,490 --> 00:03:38,670 abbreviated version of it I like that I 81 00:03:45,150 --> 00:03:41,500 was traveling around the world for born 82 00:03:47,490 --> 00:03:45,160 in New Zealand and raised there in 1982 83 00:03:49,590 --> 00:03:47,500 a teacher decided to do it like an 84 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:49,600 endless summer surfing Safari around the 85 00:03:55,830 --> 00:03:51,850 world and so traveled around the world 86 00:03:57,630 --> 00:03:55,840 and from Australia Indonesia Africa 87 00:03:59,670 --> 00:03:57,640 ended up on a beautiful article 88 00:04:03,449 --> 00:03:59,680 Mauritius where I was night diving for 89 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:03,459 lobster and 1982 and got stung by five 90 00:04:09,660 --> 00:04:06,970 box jellyfish the toxin of them is 91 00:04:12,150 --> 00:04:09,670 enough to they say a hundred times more 92 00:04:13,590 --> 00:04:12,160 deadly than a cobra and so he had no 93 00:04:16,050 --> 00:04:13,600 throat I could be dead in three or four 94 00:04:18,690 --> 00:04:16,060 minutes for genell's it on the arm on 95 00:04:19,650 --> 00:04:18,700 the extremity and the fisherman psalmody 96 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:19,660 urine a my arm 97 00:04:23,909 --> 00:04:21,370 and that I need to get to hospital 98 00:04:26,250 --> 00:04:23,919 immediately and by the time they got me 99 00:04:29,010 --> 00:04:26,260 into an ambulance was already paralyzed 100 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:29,020 gone through the death rattles and as 101 00:04:33,780 --> 00:04:30,850 they raised me towards the hospital my 102 00:04:35,460 --> 00:04:33,790 life flash before me and other complete 103 00:04:38,940 --> 00:04:35,470 atheist so thought my god this happens 104 00:04:40,740 --> 00:04:38,950 before you die and those wondering what 105 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:40,750 would happen you know is there life 106 00:04:46,260 --> 00:04:43,050 after death or is there just nothing and 107 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:46,270 some line there showed clear vision or 108 00:04:51,420 --> 00:04:48,850 mom appear in front of me and she was 109 00:04:53,250 --> 00:04:51,430 praying for me no she was it seemed as 110 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:53,260 though that God has spoken sushi Gianni 111 00:04:58,890 --> 00:04:55,570 Christian the family and inside you our 112 00:05:00,570 --> 00:04:58,900 son Ian Juby did and my mum I am prayin 113 00:05:03,150 --> 00:05:00,580 and I saw in the ambulance was 114 00:05:05,820 --> 00:05:03,160 absolutely shaken and she said here no 115 00:05:07,140 --> 00:05:05,830 matter how far from God you are son no 116 00:05:09,780 --> 00:05:07,150 matter what you've done wrong in your 117 00:05:12,930 --> 00:05:09,790 life if you call out to God from your 118 00:05:16,620 --> 00:05:12,940 heart he will hear you and he'll forgive 119 00:05:19,050 --> 00:05:16,630 you and I know thinking well is there a 120 00:05:21,450 --> 00:05:19,060 garden and if there is one is it which 121 00:05:21,690 --> 00:05:21,460 one I'd travel through the East and so 122 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:21,700 on 123 00:05:27,210 --> 00:05:23,530 seen so many different people's beliefs 124 00:05:27,540 --> 00:05:27,220 and religions and I wasn't convinced on 125 00:05:29,220 --> 00:05:27,550 any 126 00:05:31,350 --> 00:05:29,230 and I thought well God if you're real 127 00:05:33,690 --> 00:05:31,360 show me your face and I'll pray and no 128 00:05:36,180 --> 00:05:33,700 face appeared except my mom I thought 129 00:05:38,790 --> 00:05:36,190 well my mother is a Christian she prays 130 00:05:40,380 --> 00:05:38,800 Jesus could my mother be right and if 131 00:05:42,060 --> 00:05:40,390 she is right what on earth would you 132 00:05:44,460 --> 00:05:42,070 pray this Christian just before he died 133 00:05:47,490 --> 00:05:44,470 my mom keeps a knee and pray from your 134 00:05:48,870 --> 00:05:47,500 heart and the only key remember my mum 135 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:48,880 teaching me was the Lord's Prayer the 136 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:51,250 our father's prayer so I lay there I 137 00:05:55,230 --> 00:05:53,290 couldn't remember it some Imams it from 138 00:05:57,330 --> 00:05:55,240 your heart and as a God if you're out 139 00:05:59,940 --> 00:05:57,340 there I feel like a hypocrite but please 140 00:06:02,790 --> 00:05:59,950 help me to pry and words appeared in 141 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:02,800 front of me forgive us our sins and I 142 00:06:07,290 --> 00:06:04,210 said God how on earth can you forgive me 143 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:07,300 all my sins um but as I lay though I 144 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:08,770 said I can't list them all but if you 145 00:06:13,350 --> 00:06:11,410 can't hear me please forgive me and the 146 00:06:14,820 --> 00:06:13,360 words of priyad fish words come out from 147 00:06:17,090 --> 00:06:14,830 the Lord's Prayer forgive those who 148 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:17,100 trespass and sin against you 149 00:06:22,380 --> 00:06:20,410 another what I can do that I'm not a 150 00:06:25,470 --> 00:06:22,390 revengeful man by nature I'm not 151 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:25,480 vindictive and as I said that to means 152 00:06:30,090 --> 00:06:27,310 fighters appear directly in front of me 153 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:30,100 and these mins I certainly couldn't 154 00:06:34,380 --> 00:06:32,290 forgive and I heard God speak to me city 155 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:34,390 and we do forgive them for what they've 156 00:06:39,540 --> 00:06:38,050 done T or not but you must be joking but 157 00:06:42,150 --> 00:06:39,550 if you got anyone on your head Elizabeth 158 00:06:45,060 --> 00:06:42,160 any Watts was pretty serious and I lay 159 00:06:46,650 --> 00:06:45,070 there on ice over God I will forgive 160 00:06:48,060 --> 00:06:46,660 them if you can forgive me it'll be an 161 00:06:50,430 --> 00:06:48,070 absolute miracle if you could forgive me 162 00:06:52,910 --> 00:06:50,440 so if you would do that I'll never touch 163 00:06:56,250 --> 00:06:52,920 them or never harm them I forgive them 164 00:06:58,470 --> 00:06:56,260 incredibly their faces disappears and as 165 00:07:00,180 --> 00:06:58,480 your faces appeared I saw more words 166 00:07:02,790 --> 00:07:00,190 come up from the Lord's Prayer thy will 167 00:07:05,730 --> 00:07:02,800 be done on earth as it is in heaven 168 00:07:07,530 --> 00:07:05,740 and I said well that must surely mean 169 00:07:09,890 --> 00:07:07,540 the lordship of Christ and I thought 170 00:07:12,510 --> 00:07:09,900 I've never surrender my life to Jesus 171 00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:12,520 I've been completely denying the 172 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:15,070 existence of a God and I said well God 173 00:07:20,190 --> 00:07:17,890 I'm that I'm wrong I surrender my life 174 00:07:22,650 --> 00:07:20,200 to you and as I did the entire Lord's 175 00:07:25,830 --> 00:07:22,660 Prayer came before me extraordinary 176 00:07:26,790 --> 00:07:25,840 piece into my heart and I became a 177 00:07:30,330 --> 00:07:26,800 Christian right there in the ambulance 178 00:07:32,700 --> 00:07:30,340 just before I died Wow so it's an 179 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:32,710 amazing experience there and it gets 180 00:07:38,090 --> 00:07:33,970 even more amazing you get to the 181 00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:38,100 hospital eventually it's an incredibly 182 00:07:41,310 --> 00:07:40,510 complicated unbelievably complicated 183 00:07:42,690 --> 00:07:41,320 story of how you 184 00:07:44,850 --> 00:07:42,700 to the hospital but then you're 185 00:07:46,740 --> 00:07:44,860 eventually pronounced dead you're 186 00:07:49,290 --> 00:07:46,750 clinically dead they're gonna go out and 187 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:49,300 you're like in that you're in that state 188 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:52,930 for 15 minutes and then as part of your 189 00:07:58,290 --> 00:07:55,330 near-death experience but many people 190 00:08:00,420 --> 00:07:58,300 report in your report you are told to go 191 00:08:02,340 --> 00:08:00,430 back and really or you're allowed or 192 00:08:04,830 --> 00:08:02,350 however you want to put it but you re 193 00:08:06,900 --> 00:08:04,840 enter your body and then you're healed 194 00:08:09,210 --> 00:08:06,910 as well so not only are you returned and 195 00:08:11,370 --> 00:08:09,220 come back alive but you're healed almost 196 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:11,380 instantly which is quite incredible as 197 00:08:15,270 --> 00:08:12,130 well right 198 00:08:17,910 --> 00:08:15,280 yeah well the entire journey was radical 199 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:17,920 I mean and that's the bizarre thing that 200 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:19,570 their doctors through this and the too 201 00:08:23,370 --> 00:08:21,370 hard to understand basket and they call 202 00:08:25,470 --> 00:08:23,380 it near-death but that's very bad 203 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:25,480 science when it's actually the person's 204 00:08:30,090 --> 00:08:27,730 brain did and clinically did in a morgue 205 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:30,100 so near-death assumes the person is 206 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:33,010 still alive as the person has died in 207 00:08:37,710 --> 00:08:34,930 this new experience to me outside of 208 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:37,720 that it's called life after death yeah 209 00:08:41,850 --> 00:08:39,130 and that's interesting it's interesting 210 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:41,860 that you bring up science it's also 211 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:44,290 interesting that you bring up the 212 00:08:49,110 --> 00:08:47,050 Christian transformation that you went 213 00:08:51,270 --> 00:08:49,120 through because that's really where I 214 00:08:54,690 --> 00:08:51,280 wanted to hone in on I guess it's my 215 00:08:57,030 --> 00:08:54,700 personal question because when I first 216 00:08:59,430 --> 00:08:57,040 started investigating the near-death 217 00:09:03,570 --> 00:08:59,440 experience I didn't have an experience 218 00:09:06,780 --> 00:09:03,580 to go off I just found I pure ly 219 00:09:08,610 --> 00:09:06,790 approached it from from an intellectual 220 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:08,620 standpoint from a stammer could this be 221 00:09:16,010 --> 00:09:12,450 true could this view be really real and 222 00:09:18,810 --> 00:09:16,020 that led me to looking at it 223 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:18,820 scientifically if you will and I'm feel 224 00:09:24,210 --> 00:09:21,570 very grateful that there have been many 225 00:09:28,290 --> 00:09:24,220 scientists researchers who've approached 226 00:09:31,820 --> 00:09:28,300 it from a very clinical scientific way 227 00:09:33,930 --> 00:09:31,830 but what they come back and tell us is 228 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:33,940 challenging in a couple of ways I mean 229 00:09:39,870 --> 00:09:36,010 one to me the first question I want to 230 00:09:42,300 --> 00:09:39,880 answer in was is this real and I think 231 00:09:44,820 --> 00:09:42,310 most people out there who are listening 232 00:09:48,270 --> 00:09:44,830 to either your account or any of the 233 00:09:50,130 --> 00:09:48,280 many many near-death experience accounts 234 00:09:52,530 --> 00:09:50,140 that have become so public now that's 235 00:09:55,180 --> 00:09:52,540 the first question right is this real is 236 00:09:58,690 --> 00:09:55,190 this guy faking it and for 237 00:10:01,750 --> 00:09:58,700 for you I think enough people have gone 238 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:01,760 before you and enough science has gone 239 00:10:07,570 --> 00:10:04,730 before you that we don't have to dwell 240 00:10:11,050 --> 00:10:07,580 on that question for too long the amount 241 00:10:14,890 --> 00:10:11,060 of peer-reviewed solid research that's 242 00:10:17,980 --> 00:10:14,900 come out that just mounts up and tells 243 00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:17,990 us that unquestionably something is 244 00:10:24,580 --> 00:10:21,110 going on here that completely defies our 245 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:24,590 medical scientific understanding of who 246 00:10:29,890 --> 00:10:28,130 we thought we were I mean I I do 247 00:10:32,230 --> 00:10:29,900 meetings and I had done for 30 odd years 248 00:10:34,350 --> 00:10:32,240 and then each meeting is at least two or 249 00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:34,360 three people that had identical 250 00:10:39,940 --> 00:10:37,310 experiences to me so I might have made 251 00:10:42,310 --> 00:10:39,950 over 20,000 people that have actually 252 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:42,320 had this in the last 30 years yeah and 253 00:10:46,540 --> 00:10:44,930 talk to them one on one and I've talked 254 00:10:48,490 --> 00:10:46,550 to so many of them as well I've talked 255 00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:48,500 to him on this show both experiencers 256 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:51,110 and researchers and someone that that's 257 00:10:55,180 --> 00:10:52,850 not always an overlap but most of the 258 00:10:57,310 --> 00:10:55,190 researchers into near-death experience 259 00:10:59,140 --> 00:10:57,320 and I really appreciate this but most of 260 00:11:01,260 --> 00:10:59,150 them started out with no experience in 261 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:01,270 the time and the subject they just 262 00:11:06,610 --> 00:11:03,890 appreciated that it's a genuine mystery 263 00:11:08,860 --> 00:11:06,620 when like in your case somebody gets up 264 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:08,870 off the table after being dead for 15 265 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:12,050 minutes and says hey I saw you over my 266 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:15,050 chest resuscitate me and the guy goes 267 00:11:19,090 --> 00:11:16,850 how can that be you know you're not 268 00:11:21,550 --> 00:11:19,100 supposed to be able to know what's going 269 00:11:24,790 --> 00:11:21,560 on but you know the second part of that 270 00:11:28,300 --> 00:11:24,800 the Christian transformation thing is is 271 00:11:31,570 --> 00:11:28,310 harder for me to take because again I 272 00:11:35,350 --> 00:11:31,580 returned to the scientific literature 273 00:11:38,110 --> 00:11:35,360 and in it when you ask these NDE 274 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:38,120 researchers about the meaning part and 275 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:40,850 they say what does this mean well 276 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:43,130 they've done a lot of work on that as 277 00:11:47,710 --> 00:11:44,930 well and they so many of these people 278 00:11:49,630 --> 00:11:47,720 have now come back shared their accounts 279 00:11:53,050 --> 00:11:49,640 of what happened and when you go talk to 280 00:11:54,190 --> 00:11:53,060 those people you get a variety of 281 00:11:57,180 --> 00:11:54,200 different accounts you get some 282 00:12:00,700 --> 00:11:57,190 similarities but you don't get this 283 00:12:03,340 --> 00:12:00,710 singularly Christian kind of experience 284 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:03,350 that that you came back with I'm sure 285 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:05,450 you're familiar with that fact I mean 286 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:06,850 what do you make of that 287 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:09,610 well I know that 90% of the people that 288 00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:12,310 I meet have had very similar experiences 289 00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:14,320 either darkness or light or a mixture of 290 00:12:18,810 --> 00:12:17,200 the two and so it's not that they 291 00:12:21,690 --> 00:12:18,820 haven't experienced it it's perhaps the 292 00:12:23,850 --> 00:12:21,700 interpretation of it or their revelation 293 00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:23,860 all that turns or not I've met people 294 00:12:27,630 --> 00:12:25,360 from all different backgrounds who have 295 00:12:30,210 --> 00:12:27,640 no belief in God to Hindus the Buddhists 296 00:12:34,410 --> 00:12:30,220 itas who have had this experience and 297 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:34,420 they are going how do you unpackage that 298 00:12:39,060 --> 00:12:37,450 and when you look in the in the Bible I 299 00:12:41,070 --> 00:12:39,070 mean Jesus said I am the light of the 300 00:12:42,750 --> 00:12:41,080 world and I am surrounded by a light 301 00:12:44,940 --> 00:12:42,760 that's so bright that it covers the 302 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:44,950 heavens on earth and the universe and 303 00:12:49,380 --> 00:12:47,410 that light has incredible love it's the 304 00:12:51,330 --> 00:12:49,390 fruit of the Holy Spirit and peace and 305 00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:51,340 joy and many of these people have 306 00:12:55,740 --> 00:12:53,110 experienced the light but very few have 307 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:55,750 actually stepped into it I said God why 308 00:12:59,820 --> 00:12:57,610 not why are you revealing yourself to 309 00:13:01,980 --> 00:12:59,830 even people who have no belief and God 310 00:13:03,390 --> 00:13:01,990 or no reference to that you see them 311 00:13:06,150 --> 00:13:03,400 because I love people I love every 312 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:06,160 single person to come to know me and I 313 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:09,610 said how can I step and see you face to 314 00:13:14,310 --> 00:13:11,890 face ecity and the Jewish people talked 315 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:14,320 about the Holy of Holies that you could 316 00:13:18,660 --> 00:13:16,090 only come on through through the blood 317 00:13:21,060 --> 00:13:18,670 and through sacrifice and he said I'll 318 00:13:23,010 --> 00:13:21,070 pay that sacrifice and when you prayed 319 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:23,020 in the ambulance the Lord's Prayer you 320 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:25,210 actually gave your life to me the Seder 321 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:26,770 through the blood we can enter into the 322 00:13:31,230 --> 00:13:29,050 Holy of Holies he said when you served 323 00:13:33,930 --> 00:13:31,240 in and saw me glorified in that radiant 324 00:13:36,540 --> 00:13:33,940 form what did you experience that I felt 325 00:13:38,250 --> 00:13:36,550 incredible purity and holiness emanate 326 00:13:40,890 --> 00:13:38,260 from you is that when you looked into my 327 00:13:42,990 --> 00:13:40,900 face what did you see I said I saw as 328 00:13:44,820 --> 00:13:43,000 the light of the universe came out of 329 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:44,830 your face was they like looking into 330 00:13:50,970 --> 00:13:47,370 eternity with an eternity and he said 331 00:13:53,190 --> 00:13:50,980 what colors my hair was white he said 332 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:53,200 well in the Book of Revelations John the 333 00:13:57,270 --> 00:13:55,090 Apostle saw that over 2,000 years ago 334 00:13:59,400 --> 00:13:57,280 his head nurse here were white like wool 335 00:14:02,160 --> 00:13:59,410 like snow his face shining like the Sun 336 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:02,170 full strength and and I said and you 337 00:14:06,270 --> 00:14:04,450 stepped aside and you showed me what 338 00:14:08,310 --> 00:14:06,280 appeared to be a totally new earth he 339 00:14:09,660 --> 00:14:08,320 said it's right in I've created a new 340 00:14:13,170 --> 00:14:09,670 heaven the new earth the River of Life 341 00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:13,180 and flowers and trees and I said that's 342 00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:16,690 extraordinary because the reference to 343 00:14:20,090 --> 00:14:18,910 all that I had seen and I had no I never 344 00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:20,100 read about before 345 00:14:24,630 --> 00:14:22,720 absolutely showed identically what I'd 346 00:14:25,890 --> 00:14:24,640 experienced and what a number of people 347 00:14:29,730 --> 00:14:25,900 to have experienced throughout 348 00:14:32,820 --> 00:14:29,740 throughout history right and I can't do 349 00:14:36,450 --> 00:14:32,830 anything other than to hear your 350 00:14:38,430 --> 00:14:36,460 testimony hear your experience rely I'm 351 00:14:40,740 --> 00:14:38,440 not here to judge or anything like that 352 00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:40,750 I'm here to really try and understand 353 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:42,880 and understand what that means for me I 354 00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:46,270 mean I can understand how you had a 355 00:14:52,740 --> 00:14:49,630 Christian experienced how that was meant 356 00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:52,750 to be your spiritual transformation your 357 00:14:59,790 --> 00:14:57,310 path justified that is literally - and 358 00:15:03,390 --> 00:14:59,800 try to box myself and well if I'd been 359 00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:03,400 born and Nepal I'd seen Krishna or if 360 00:15:08,190 --> 00:15:05,680 I'd been born and Egypt that saw 361 00:15:10,769 --> 00:15:08,200 Muhammad I mean I could have related to 362 00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:10,779 all of those little thoughts - but one 363 00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:13,839 strike me because I was an atheist and a 364 00:15:17,490 --> 00:15:15,310 very free thinker and also an 365 00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:17,500 intellectual and I when Jesus when Jesus 366 00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:19,839 spoke to me city and God is light and in 367 00:15:22,410 --> 00:15:21,070 him there's no darkness there didn't 368 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:22,420 come out of a Quran all the way late 369 00:15:25,860 --> 00:15:23,710 they came straight from the Bible and 370 00:15:27,420 --> 00:15:25,870 when he stood aside and said there's a 371 00:15:29,340 --> 00:15:27,430 new heaven a new earth and you've been 372 00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:29,350 saved by my precious blood and I'm the 373 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:30,940 light of the world became strand of the 374 00:15:34,650 --> 00:15:31,690 scriptures 375 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:34,660 I had no reference to that no no I and 376 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:37,290 again but in your kind of defending 377 00:15:41,610 --> 00:15:39,730 something that I'm not attacking you I'm 378 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:41,620 not attacking that any of that happened 379 00:15:45,390 --> 00:15:43,450 or you didn't interpret it interpret it 380 00:15:47,579 --> 00:15:45,400 that way I'll tell you guy I really 381 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:47,589 respect I like came on this show so a 382 00:15:52,850 --> 00:15:49,810 guy named dr. Jeff long and a few years 383 00:15:55,740 --> 00:15:52,860 ago he published a book about his 384 00:15:57,750 --> 00:15:55,750 collected over a thousand near-death 385 00:15:58,920 --> 00:15:57,760 experience at Count's it's a position so 386 00:16:01,140 --> 00:15:58,930 he really knows what he's talking about 387 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:01,150 but he created this amazing website 388 00:16:07,290 --> 00:16:05,050 called nder f dot org you know if you've 389 00:16:10,460 --> 00:16:07,300 ever heard of it but you can go on there 390 00:16:13,860 --> 00:16:10,470 and there's hundreds and hundreds of 391 00:16:17,190 --> 00:16:13,870 published near-death experience accounts 392 00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:17,200 dramatic extraordinary xyx I have to say 393 00:16:21,390 --> 00:16:18,790 as extraordinary as your as many of the 394 00:16:23,370 --> 00:16:21,400 members of a more here's something I 395 00:16:26,130 --> 00:16:23,380 like to do whenever I have questions I 396 00:16:29,150 --> 00:16:26,140 find going to that website and reading 397 00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:29,160 these accounts extremely uplifting 398 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:30,910 spiritually for me 399 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:33,610 but I also find it in 400 00:16:37,530 --> 00:16:35,650 interesting tool you know you can go 401 00:16:39,570 --> 00:16:37,540 there I did it right before our 402 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:39,580 interview in I went in there in search 403 00:16:45,810 --> 00:16:44,410 for some biblical connections to the 404 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:45,820 near-death experience I'll read you a 405 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:48,370 couple Tanya she is a near-death 406 00:16:52,890 --> 00:16:50,650 experience she encounters the spirit 407 00:16:54,570 --> 00:16:52,900 bang she asks all these questions here's 408 00:16:56,970 --> 00:16:54,580 what she writes she asked about the 409 00:16:59,370 --> 00:16:56,980 Bible Jesus she even asked about gay and 410 00:17:01,770 --> 00:16:59,380 lesbian as well I asked all sorts of 411 00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:01,780 questions and received every answer I 412 00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:04,089 asked what religion is the correct one 413 00:17:08,490 --> 00:17:06,550 they told me I didn't have to choose 414 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:08,500 here's a better one I want to I want to 415 00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:10,450 read you two more of these you didn't 416 00:17:13,620 --> 00:17:12,160 have reference to their descriptor save 417 00:17:15,150 --> 00:17:13,630 and if it being if not would come to you 418 00:17:17,070 --> 00:17:15,160 and speak anything to Christ respond 419 00:17:18,930 --> 00:17:17,080 Lucifer himself income as of being 420 00:17:20,790 --> 00:17:18,940 applying do you really want to go there 421 00:17:23,699 --> 00:17:20,800 do you really want to say someone else 422 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:23,709 who died like you did clinically had 423 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:25,330 this spiritually transformative 424 00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:27,850 experience that changes their life just 425 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:30,160 like yours did do you really want to 426 00:17:33,690 --> 00:17:32,050 bring Lucifer and Satan into it and say 427 00:17:38,820 --> 00:17:33,700 oh but those people are being deceived 428 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:38,830 and I'm not I mean is that just that 429 00:17:43,950 --> 00:17:42,130 there are experiences where we have 430 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:43,960 spiritual beings I'm speaking to you 431 00:17:47,730 --> 00:17:45,370 that it's not loose of the time isn't 432 00:17:49,650 --> 00:17:47,740 speaking at least about zero but there 433 00:17:50,970 --> 00:17:49,660 are deceiving spirits or aligned spirits 434 00:17:54,060 --> 00:17:50,980 some people they're psychotic 435 00:17:55,860 --> 00:17:54,070 experiences so there's most people I 436 00:17:57,390 --> 00:17:55,870 mean I mean over twenty thousand of them 437 00:17:59,540 --> 00:17:57,400 because I do this every day I don't just 438 00:18:03,330 --> 00:17:59,550 research and I actually meet people 439 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:03,340 face-to-face and huge numbers of them 440 00:18:08,130 --> 00:18:05,650 who've had genuine experiences with the 441 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:08,140 love of God I just haven't been able to 442 00:18:13,260 --> 00:18:11,050 reference who that beam of light is and 443 00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:13,270 here you find that the scripture the 444 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:16,720 Bible is so clear and so accurate and 445 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:19,690 the understanding of God is love it's 446 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:21,970 forgiving and compassionate that's what 447 00:18:26,550 --> 00:18:24,730 I would say the majority of people who 448 00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:26,560 have a near-death experience that's one 449 00:18:31,590 --> 00:18:28,960 thing that's consistently they say they 450 00:18:35,010 --> 00:18:31,600 say it's not about religion well say 451 00:18:37,620 --> 00:18:35,020 it's about love it's about mother 452 00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:37,630 it's not about religion religion can put 453 00:18:41,210 --> 00:18:39,520 people off Jesus as a person is not a 454 00:18:43,410 --> 00:18:41,220 religion he's an actual living being 455 00:18:44,970 --> 00:18:43,420 then let me let me do this let me share 456 00:18:46,890 --> 00:18:44,980 a couple more of these here's someone 457 00:18:50,299 --> 00:18:46,900 her name is Karen 458 00:18:53,370 --> 00:18:50,309 she's published on the nder f dot org 459 00:18:56,580 --> 00:18:53,380 extensive survey 150 questions reviewed 460 00:18:58,560 --> 00:18:56,590 by a medical doctor karen says she took 461 00:19:00,210 --> 00:18:58,570 me and placed me in the crystal-like bed 462 00:19:02,340 --> 00:19:00,220 and told me to rest because there were 463 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:02,350 beings who wanted to honor and welcome 464 00:19:18,030 --> 00:19:02,650 me 465 00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:18,040 her I was afraid that putting myself at 466 00:19:23,070 --> 00:19:20,500 the same level of Jesus would damn me to 467 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:23,080 hell she laughed and told me there is no 468 00:19:29,220 --> 00:19:27,010 hell we're all equal in spirit form let 469 00:19:31,230 --> 00:19:29,230 me read you one more you can either read 470 00:19:33,180 --> 00:19:31,240 heaps of this place all of the people 471 00:19:35,820 --> 00:19:33,190 that are involved in you I do teach this 472 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:35,830 you know how many people who interpreter 473 00:19:39,930 --> 00:19:37,570 and through New Age means of themselves 474 00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:39,940 so it's all just one big happy family 475 00:19:43,950 --> 00:19:41,440 that you can get there without Christ 476 00:19:45,450 --> 00:19:43,960 but Jesus did I am the only way and then 477 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:45,460 and I am the light of the world I'm not 478 00:19:50,220 --> 00:19:48,490 just man I am the son of God but Jesus 479 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:50,230 didn't say that to Karen when she had a 480 00:19:56,210 --> 00:19:53,770 near-death experience mm-hmm he had done 481 00:19:59,520 --> 00:19:56,220 too little 20 out thousand people on it 482 00:20:01,280 --> 00:19:59,530 well so so how are we supposed to how 483 00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:01,290 are we supposed to swallow you get you 484 00:20:07,110 --> 00:20:04,480 into a maze of opinions and amazing 485 00:20:09,390 --> 00:20:07,120 experiences you will get whichever one 486 00:20:10,919 --> 00:20:09,400 you'd like to choose Alice asked or you 487 00:20:12,060 --> 00:20:10,929 can actually look at the bulk of them 488 00:20:14,490 --> 00:20:12,070 and the bulk of them would present 489 00:20:17,370 --> 00:20:14,500 Christ glorified the bulk of them do not 490 00:20:20,460 --> 00:20:17,380 show Jesus as the central figure of 491 00:20:22,590 --> 00:20:20,470 their near-death ones your spirit you 492 00:20:25,169 --> 00:20:22,600 because I'm healing nicely we're in 493 00:20:26,970 --> 00:20:25,179 church and he's numbers enough widen to 494 00:20:30,419 --> 00:20:26,980 talk about in case you get lost into the 495 00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:30,429 new ice camp that always lead to God so 496 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:33,070 you're you're maintaining that most 497 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:36,090 near-death experiences or Christian 498 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:38,410 appointing them to cross just the 499 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:40,570 published evidence your research and 500 00:20:45,690 --> 00:20:42,850 that you're putting other salient books 501 00:20:48,330 --> 00:20:45,700 or necessary even getting online but I 502 00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:48,340 mean thousands of people who just aren't 503 00:20:51,090 --> 00:20:49,809 going to see a puzzle because many of 504 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:51,100 them are frightened because of the new 505 00:20:55,380 --> 00:20:53,770 age camp for the eradicated and so we're 506 00:20:58,260 --> 00:20:55,390 never met Christ himself and had 507 00:21:00,660 --> 00:20:58,270 incredible encounters as love you know I 508 00:21:02,490 --> 00:21:00,670 appreciate that that's your opinion but 509 00:21:05,310 --> 00:21:02,500 if we were going to sign I just want 510 00:21:06,770 --> 00:21:05,320 your opinion - well and that's my point 511 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:06,780 I guess if we're gonna sort through 512 00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:09,610 opinions that's where it's kind of nice 513 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:11,950 to have science it's kind of nice to 514 00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:14,890 have people who do peer review who try 515 00:21:21,090 --> 00:21:17,920 and apply the best methods possible to 516 00:21:23,730 --> 00:21:21,100 get sort out this data and sort out you 517 00:21:25,530 --> 00:21:23,740 know what people are under reporting and 518 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:25,540 what people are over reporting and do 519 00:21:32,010 --> 00:21:27,970 all that and I'm telling you that in my 520 00:21:33,390 --> 00:21:32,020 experience Geoff long a physician and a 521 00:21:35,730 --> 00:21:33,400 guy who's trained in this kind of 522 00:21:39,540 --> 00:21:35,740 research has done the best kind of 523 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:39,550 research of that type and his reading of 524 00:21:45,150 --> 00:21:42,610 the data disagrees with yours so III 525 00:21:46,830 --> 00:21:45,160 guess I put that right but the truth 526 00:21:48,510 --> 00:21:46,840 will be found when you actually die with 527 00:21:51,030 --> 00:21:48,520 it who was right and that's the scary 528 00:21:52,890 --> 00:21:51,040 thought and if you are wrong that can 529 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:52,900 actually have an eternal impact well I 530 00:21:57,150 --> 00:21:54,490 think that's kind of the fear-mongering 531 00:22:01,860 --> 00:21:57,160 a Christian fear mongering that turns 532 00:22:04,890 --> 00:22:01,870 people off it's not see fit reality 533 00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:04,900 perfect love casts out fear no sir of 534 00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:10,240 this but but what you are instilling is 535 00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:14,880 this idea that there is there you know 536 00:22:20,670 --> 00:22:17,230 and I actually went to a place called 537 00:22:22,860 --> 00:22:20,680 hell yes it's not an intellectual cause 538 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:22,870 there two realities in my experience 539 00:22:26,460 --> 00:22:24,730 which I hope you're looking to listen to 540 00:22:29,340 --> 00:22:26,470 it but there are we into a place could 541 00:22:32,270 --> 00:22:29,350 help well I think I just talked it and 542 00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:32,280 if there isn't while that's fine but 543 00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:35,830 City serious consequences if I'm right 544 00:22:45,870 --> 00:22:38,100 right right 545 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:45,880 well I isn't there isn't well 50 jobs 546 00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:49,450 I'm wrong well I think this is a tactic 547 00:22:58,130 --> 00:22:52,000 that Christian evangelists have used 548 00:23:06,570 --> 00:23:04,260 doesn't Christian yeah I just published 549 00:23:08,490 --> 00:23:06,580 an interview with pastor Howard storm 550 00:23:11,670 --> 00:23:08,500 wasn't experience similar to yours right 551 00:23:13,470 --> 00:23:11,680 is atheist who is has this incredible 552 00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:13,480 near-death experience and is transformed 553 00:23:16,890 --> 00:23:14,110 into a Christian 554 00:23:19,620 --> 00:23:16,900 are you familiar with his exposure I 555 00:23:21,810 --> 00:23:19,630 think pastor storm who I just talked to 556 00:23:24,690 --> 00:23:21,820 and just published his interview today I 557 00:23:27,330 --> 00:23:24,700 think has a different take on this than 558 00:23:30,450 --> 00:23:27,340 you do he says that all near-death 559 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:30,460 experiences are idiosyncratic and that 560 00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:32,110 they're all different and that all 561 00:23:37,710 --> 00:23:34,960 religions have an element of truth to 562 00:23:40,650 --> 00:23:37,720 them and that he loves all religions he 563 00:23:43,830 --> 00:23:40,660 just loves Christianity best he doesn't 564 00:23:46,860 --> 00:23:43,840 see the strict biblical interpretation 565 00:23:49,620 --> 00:23:46,870 of it that you do so there's a guy who's 566 00:23:50,220 --> 00:23:49,630 very much in line with you on a lot of 567 00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:50,230 respects 568 00:23:55,049 --> 00:23:52,809 who would I think take a completely 569 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:55,059 different take on exactly the points 570 00:23:59,280 --> 00:23:56,530 that you're making how do we resolve 571 00:24:00,780 --> 00:23:59,290 those no I'm Jesus it here is the way 572 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:00,790 the truth the life and it's not whether 573 00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:02,650 I'm right or wrong and to the Jesus it's 574 00:24:06,450 --> 00:24:04,510 right or wrong and he said there's no 575 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:06,460 other one to the father's not with the 576 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:08,410 run writer omits with a crisis right or 577 00:24:16,750 --> 00:24:14,210 wrong there's a narrow tunnel 578 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:16,760 to my kingdom did you find it but it's 579 00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:18,770 your okay but I would travel down a 580 00:24:22,270 --> 00:24:21,110 tunnel of light he said light eyes and 581 00:24:23,710 --> 00:24:22,280 eyes you've been delivered from a 582 00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:23,720 kingdom of darkness born into the 583 00:24:26,950 --> 00:24:25,430 kingdom his beloved son he said have 584 00:24:29,740 --> 00:24:26,960 created you heaven and new earth I've 585 00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:29,750 seen it so it's not not what I see it 586 00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:32,150 it's actually what Christ said well 587 00:24:37,750 --> 00:24:34,910 anyone can take any experience they've 588 00:24:41,010 --> 00:24:37,760 had and then substitute biblical 589 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:41,020 scripture in it and say why can't they 590 00:24:46,540 --> 00:24:44,810 well you can you can if if you don't 591 00:24:47,860 --> 00:24:46,550 know the scriptures how can you have to 592 00:24:51,630 --> 00:24:47,870 use them if you've never read it I've 593 00:24:55,870 --> 00:24:51,640 never written well what what is what 594 00:24:58,420 --> 00:24:55,880 possible so what what you're saying is 595 00:24:59,770 --> 00:24:58,430 that the extraordinary telepathic link 596 00:25:02,320 --> 00:24:59,780 you had to the scriptures 597 00:25:03,940 --> 00:25:02,330 therefore validates the scriptures no 598 00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:03,950 I'm just telling you my experience I met 599 00:25:07,270 --> 00:25:05,510 Christ then he told me to read a Bible 600 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:07,280 he said I was born again Christian yeah 601 00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:09,290 they heard of the term before yeah I'm 602 00:25:12,460 --> 00:25:11,840 totally cool with your experience I'm 603 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:12,470 just saying 604 00:25:17,230 --> 00:25:15,770 oh my changed my library and I can't 605 00:25:17,650 --> 00:25:17,240 wait to go back and see them face to 606 00:25:19,930 --> 00:25:17,660 face 607 00:25:21,370 --> 00:25:19,940 well that's great I'm just hoping the 608 00:25:24,370 --> 00:25:21,380 people themselves would meet that 609 00:25:26,410 --> 00:25:24,380 incredible love of our souls the lover 610 00:25:28,660 --> 00:25:26,420 who died for our sins and has risen from 611 00:25:31,030 --> 00:25:28,670 the dead and glorified so my heart in 612 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:31,040 sharing with anyone that they would find 613 00:25:35,290 --> 00:25:32,810 that extraordinary love that would 614 00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:35,300 forgive them the whole distance and he 615 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:37,310 could come into their heart by faith and 616 00:25:43,110 --> 00:25:39,050 that love only comes through Jesus 617 00:25:45,490 --> 00:25:43,120 Christ well say that he is the Ruy 618 00:25:47,260 --> 00:25:45,500 father son Holy Spirit you seen his 619 00:25:50,620 --> 00:25:47,270 spirit to draw us under the under the 620 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:50,630 fathers of Christ so all those wonderful 621 00:25:55,930 --> 00:25:53,330 people that you encountered in all these 622 00:25:59,860 --> 00:25:55,940 other nations all these other traditions 623 00:26:01,780 --> 00:25:59,870 that come through and our beautiful 624 00:26:04,420 --> 00:26:01,790 people who we look at and say are ba 625 00:26:08,020 --> 00:26:04,430 wonderful spiritual people they are 626 00:26:14,650 --> 00:26:08,030 somehow lesser because they don't share 627 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:14,660 your religious belief in this humility 628 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:16,610 it's not out of pride or arrogance that 629 00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:19,850 we share this with morenae Christians 630 00:26:25,010 --> 00:26:22,910 last night most elite has been modern in 631 00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:25,020 the 1990s by the 632 00:26:30,710 --> 00:26:28,230 the government took over from the Shah 633 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:30,720 of Iran they locked the bar with society 634 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:32,850 and slaughtered most of these guys and 635 00:26:36,110 --> 00:26:34,650 neared children with this hearing last 636 00:26:38,990 --> 00:26:36,120 night if they've got the father Bible 637 00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:39,000 printed into modern party into Iranian 638 00:26:44,540 --> 00:26:41,760 and it was just so moving listening to 639 00:26:47,180 --> 00:26:44,550 them it's not out of Pride and it's just 640 00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:47,190 out of the place of there is a real evil 641 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:48,720 in the world and there's a real light 642 00:26:52,850 --> 00:26:50,850 and in Christ that I have their light 643 00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:52,860 and love my spirit will just set you 644 00:26:57,590 --> 00:26:53,840 free 645 00:27:03,410 --> 00:26:57,600 okay well man I mean you got to do what 646 00:27:05,150 --> 00:27:03,420 you think towards young Muslims they got 647 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:05,160 converted they're literally risking your 648 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:08,490 lives my shirt last 900 right I hear you 649 00:27:12,169 --> 00:27:10,170 and it makes no difference to you that 650 00:27:15,380 --> 00:27:12,179 people have near-death experiences and 651 00:27:17,870 --> 00:27:15,390 have Muslim experiences have Muslim 652 00:27:19,910 --> 00:27:17,880 Islamic experiences have experiences 653 00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:19,920 with Allah or have experiences with 654 00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:26,100 Buddha matters to you right experience 655 00:27:28,820 --> 00:27:27,600 the Lord how does lean stirred and have 656 00:27:30,410 --> 00:27:28,830 a look at it it's the same as what 657 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:30,420 you're doing right now you're trying the 658 00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:32,250 best you can to lens what you through in 659 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:35,130 listen I'm trying to what well you're 660 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:37,530 trying to lean to interpret the 661 00:27:41,930 --> 00:27:38,910 experiences of people that you've heard 662 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:41,940 talk to you so I have like you listening 663 00:27:47,030 --> 00:27:45,090 you're searching you're looking well in 664 00:27:49,070 --> 00:27:47,040 and I think you're searching - I think 665 00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:49,080 you've grabbed on to something because 666 00:27:53,510 --> 00:27:50,940 it works for you and if there's 667 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:53,520 obviously a lot of reasons why you've 668 00:27:58,610 --> 00:27:55,290 done that and why it propels you forward 669 00:28:02,030 --> 00:27:58,620 I think that we really all need to take 670 00:28:04,010 --> 00:28:02,040 a step back and try and use the best 671 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:04,020 tools that we have to figure out what 672 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:06,210 these experiences are otherwise people 673 00:28:11,270 --> 00:28:08,970 get pulled into by their one experience 674 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:11,280 and that one experience dominates their 675 00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:13,890 life and they're not able to look above 676 00:28:23,930 --> 00:28:20,910 and beyond hundreds of times I've seen 677 00:28:25,940 --> 00:28:23,940 about 70 to 80 percent of the book of 678 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:25,950 revelations by personal experience so 679 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:28,410 it's not a one-off experience it's a 680 00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:29,850 daily experience it's a living 681 00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:31,910 experience right and there's a hundred 682 00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:34,500 it's not just a one-off experience if it 683 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:37,710 was it wouldn't have converted me 684 00:28:44,690 --> 00:28:41,970 it's your experience in I mean she in my 685 00:28:47,980 --> 00:28:44,700 experience my experiences nocturnal life 686 00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:47,990 not you pray to God love I got you 687 00:28:52,159 --> 00:28:50,880 meaning Christ glorified so that's my 688 00:28:54,409 --> 00:28:52,169 experience people will see their own 689 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:54,419 experiences and and they need to they 690 00:28:59,090 --> 00:28:57,450 need assured and whether they're right 691 00:29:00,100 --> 00:28:59,100 or wrong jesus said well the truth will 692 00:29:04,070 --> 00:29:00,110 set you free 693 00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:04,080 he said all my word is truth right and 694 00:29:16,549 --> 00:29:07,049 my blood will washes wide it's not right 695 00:29:16,940 --> 00:29:16,559 on another experience that so hey what's 696 00:29:19,610 --> 00:29:16,950 that 697 00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:19,620 and I just experienced his light and 698 00:29:23,450 --> 00:29:22,049 love seeing miracles and healings of the 699 00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:23,460 same thing that Christ talked about I 700 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:28,710 mean my life radically changed I not 701 00:29:34,399 --> 00:29:32,130 gonna deny any of that in a broader look 702 00:29:35,990 --> 00:29:34,409 at it is is kind of useful there's a lot 703 00:29:38,330 --> 00:29:36,000 of people whose lives have been 704 00:29:40,610 --> 00:29:38,340 dramatically changed who are beautiful 705 00:29:43,460 --> 00:29:40,620 spiritual people who come through and 706 00:29:48,850 --> 00:29:43,470 see it as not a Christian experience or 707 00:29:54,409 --> 00:29:52,250 they'll find out again whether that 708 00:30:05,210 --> 00:29:54,419 experience that they've interpreted is 709 00:30:07,820 --> 00:30:05,220 right or wrong as will you my friend the 710 00:30:09,919 --> 00:30:07,830 humility isn't there in that the 711 00:30:12,470 --> 00:30:09,929 confidence is there the egde you know 712 00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:12,480 being so sure of yourself and your way 713 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:15,510 is there but not the humility of saying 714 00:30:19,570 --> 00:30:17,490 you know there's a lot of beautiful 715 00:30:26,210 --> 00:30:19,580 people out there and there's a lot of 716 00:30:29,570 --> 00:30:26,220 spiritual experiences the point of death 717 00:30:31,070 --> 00:30:29,580 so if you relating me to be my Christ 718 00:30:34,519 --> 00:30:31,080 but I'm trying to be but I'm not 719 00:30:36,649 --> 00:30:34,529 so humility is humility to accept a liar 720 00:30:38,539 --> 00:30:36,659 deception or falsehood well I don't see 721 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:38,549 that as you know I see that is not this 722 00:30:42,139 --> 00:30:39,090 wrong 723 00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:42,149 humility is actually a character of who 724 00:30:45,470 --> 00:30:43,830 Christ marks who laid himself down and 725 00:30:49,670 --> 00:30:45,480 he loves so much he laid his life now 726 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:52,040 analyst that we've had to 727 00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:53,610 endure for hundreds of years with 728 00:31:02,510 --> 00:30:58,170 Christianity and I don't I think you got 729 00:31:09,170 --> 00:31:02,520 to get past that because I live and 730 00:31:11,090 --> 00:31:09,180 orient this or against us that's what 731 00:31:14,150 --> 00:31:11,100 that's what you're Chris you're version 732 00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:14,160 or Christianity no I don't need a lot of 733 00:31:19,010 --> 00:31:16,320 people I mean seems to people it's 734 00:31:20,690 --> 00:31:19,020 amazing how whenever you preach Jesus 735 00:31:22,370 --> 00:31:20,700 the antagonism of the Spirit that can 736 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:22,380 come on people's hearts either being 737 00:31:27,170 --> 00:31:24,210 hurt or wounded and I understand my 738 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:27,180 church no mate all these near-death 739 00:31:31,850 --> 00:31:29,490 experience accounts of people who also 740 00:31:33,650 --> 00:31:31,860 encountered Jesus and have a totally 741 00:31:35,060 --> 00:31:33,660 different interpretation of it and you 742 00:31:41,660 --> 00:31:35,070 dismiss them out of hand 743 00:31:46,850 --> 00:31:41,670 you listen anyone had a hand just 744 00:31:49,970 --> 00:31:46,860 because you said the fact what the 745 00:31:53,390 --> 00:31:49,980 scripture is true these people had a 746 00:31:59,690 --> 00:31:53,400 valid experience and encounter when they 747 00:32:02,350 --> 00:31:59,700 were dead - in yours well you're saying 748 00:32:06,730 --> 00:32:04,810 after read the Bible so one of you is 749 00:32:08,289 --> 00:32:06,740 right and one of you is wrong and you 750 00:32:09,850 --> 00:32:08,299 keep saying well you're gonna bet 751 00:32:11,769 --> 00:32:09,860 against hell so you know you're gonna 752 00:32:15,190 --> 00:32:11,779 burn those flames that's not very 753 00:32:17,470 --> 00:32:15,200 convincing to me just thinking any 754 00:32:18,340 --> 00:32:17,480 flying so into darkness where'd you get 755 00:32:21,610 --> 00:32:18,350 flames wrong 756 00:32:22,930 --> 00:32:21,620 Ian these people I just read you 757 00:32:24,669 --> 00:32:22,940 somebody had a near-death experience and 758 00:32:26,409 --> 00:32:24,679 said there's no hell and you say there 759 00:32:28,659 --> 00:32:26,419 is a hell right so whatever it was right 760 00:32:30,460 --> 00:32:28,669 and one of you is wrong both of you are 761 00:32:32,230 --> 00:32:30,470 death experience both of you had an 762 00:32:33,399 --> 00:32:32,240 out-of-body experience both had an 763 00:32:35,379 --> 00:32:33,409 encounter with Jesus 764 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:35,389 one of you is right one of you is wrong 765 00:32:40,180 --> 00:32:38,570 or what I think Ian is both of you are 766 00:32:41,740 --> 00:32:40,190 right because both of you are 767 00:32:43,509 --> 00:32:41,750 interpreting that experience 768 00:32:44,980 --> 00:32:43,519 incorporating it into the rest of your 769 00:32:46,180 --> 00:32:44,990 life doing the best you can I'm not 770 00:32:48,100 --> 00:32:46,190 saying you're not doing the best you can 771 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:48,110 but then trying to move forward with 772 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:49,850 your life and figure it out but you're 773 00:32:53,590 --> 00:32:52,010 so damn certain that it's your way and 774 00:32:55,659 --> 00:32:53,600 that anyone else who's had this 775 00:32:58,149 --> 00:32:55,669 encounter with Jesus they have to be 776 00:32:59,860 --> 00:32:58,159 discounted if they don't come to the 777 00:33:14,019 --> 00:32:59,870 same conclusions you do I find that 778 00:33:16,899 --> 00:33:14,029 offensive is wrong where the scriptures 779 00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:16,909 are not interpreted through an 780 00:33:20,019 --> 00:33:18,529 individual that's what I just say 781 00:33:22,509 --> 00:33:20,029 there's my experience by God lady miss 782 00:33:26,259 --> 00:33:22,519 did read the Bible well we don't that's 783 00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:26,269 that's your versus here in my face you 784 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:29,529 rang me to get me to share my experience 785 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:31,730 that's that's fair enough 786 00:33:37,539 --> 00:33:34,490 I didn't pursue you you pursued me I 787 00:33:39,639 --> 00:33:37,549 will yes that's true good all right 788 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:39,649 therefore if you're pursuing me to 789 00:33:42,490 --> 00:33:40,850 either you're twenty didn't this be that 790 00:33:48,970 --> 00:33:42,500 I'm wrong well you want to hear my 791 00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:48,980 experience that's fine in I'm not when I 792 00:33:53,500 --> 00:33:50,960 was a church I know you can back off but 793 00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:53,510 that's the truth you pursued me to get 794 00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:55,519 my experience right but then when I 795 00:34:00,879 --> 00:33:58,250 share my experience you don't like it in 796 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:00,889 you agreed to be on a public that's 797 00:34:06,549 --> 00:34:05,090 right but you could I mean I can I can 798 00:34:09,730 --> 00:34:06,559 shout over you too 799 00:34:12,460 --> 00:34:09,740 but you agreed to in a public forum to 800 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:12,470 discuss these issues and that's exactly 801 00:34:15,909 --> 00:34:15,169 what I'm doing so in terms of pursuing 802 00:34:18,129 --> 00:34:15,919 you I didn't 803 00:34:20,289 --> 00:34:18,139 stalk you and knock on your house I and 804 00:34:24,399 --> 00:34:20,299 I shared with you the questions that I 805 00:34:26,049 --> 00:34:24,409 was going to ask I think well you can 806 00:34:27,730 --> 00:34:26,059 decide whether you've answered them I 807 00:34:29,559 --> 00:34:27,740 can decide whether you've answered them 808 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:29,569 and our audience can decide whether you 809 00:34:33,730 --> 00:34:31,970 to answer them in it's it's not just so 810 00:34:35,770 --> 00:34:33,740 cut and dried the way you it's just 811 00:34:38,139 --> 00:34:35,780 Ian's way or it's the highway that's 812 00:34:41,230 --> 00:34:38,149 what comes through I just the Guyanese 813 00:34:44,799 --> 00:34:41,240 sleeps on it I've experienced the Lord 814 00:34:49,149 --> 00:34:44,809 he leave me to read a Bible I met him 815 00:34:51,579 --> 00:34:49,159 when I died all right I mean I think now 816 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:51,589 that's good in I'd encourage people to 817 00:34:58,030 --> 00:34:54,290 check you out check out your website a 818 00:35:00,370 --> 00:34:58,040 glimpse of eternity org and your book at 819 00:35:02,950 --> 00:35:00,380 the same name these are hard 820 00:35:05,710 --> 00:35:02,960 conversations to have but I think it's 821 00:35:07,630 --> 00:35:05,720 really I commend you for you know 822 00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:07,640 agreeing to come on and have an answer 823 00:35:15,130 --> 00:35:13,040 these kind of I do too whatever they 824 00:35:17,740 --> 00:35:15,140 come away with so with that 825 00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:17,750 enjoy the rest your evening and thanks 826 00:35:23,859 --> 00:35:20,569 again okay 827 00:35:26,289 --> 00:35:23,869 I rarely cut off interviews if you've 828 00:35:28,690 --> 00:35:26,299 listened to this show there's over 250 829 00:35:30,460 --> 00:35:28,700 episodes I've got off maybe one that I 830 00:35:33,010 --> 00:35:30,470 can remember but I'm gonna cut this one 831 00:35:35,020 --> 00:35:33,020 off here because there isn't much to 832 00:35:36,940 --> 00:35:35,030 debate about with someone who claims to 833 00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:36,950 be speaking the words of Jesus the 834 00:35:43,180 --> 00:35:39,710 ultimate authority on everything but I 835 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:43,190 have to say at another level this show 836 00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:45,650 gets to one of the points that I think 837 00:35:49,990 --> 00:35:47,440 is central to what we've been 838 00:35:52,059 --> 00:35:50,000 investigating on skeptic oh and I 839 00:35:54,190 --> 00:35:52,069 brought it up on the last episode in my 840 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:54,200 interview with Howard storm but I'll 841 00:36:00,430 --> 00:35:56,930 bring it up again here with a slightly 842 00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:00,440 different twist what are we to make of 843 00:36:07,750 --> 00:36:04,730 the reality of the strangeness of the 844 00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:07,760 near-death experience see I don't 845 00:36:13,270 --> 00:36:10,730 question whether Ian did have an 846 00:36:16,089 --> 00:36:13,280 encounter with Jesus with Christ 847 00:36:19,630 --> 00:36:16,099 consciousness I just don't know what the 848 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:19,640 heck that means and at the same time I'm 849 00:36:26,530 --> 00:36:23,170 really pretty darn sure that his strict 850 00:36:28,660 --> 00:36:26,540 biblical interpretation of that account 851 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:28,670 is in some way 852 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:31,130 wrong if we can say it and the reason I 853 00:36:35,470 --> 00:36:33,170 say that is because I spent a lot of 854 00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:35,480 time on Christian apologetics and I 855 00:36:40,180 --> 00:36:38,000 think if you go back and and try and 856 00:36:42,250 --> 00:36:40,190 trudge through that history like we have 857 00:36:44,740 --> 00:36:42,260 a little bit on this show at the very 858 00:36:48,099 --> 00:36:44,750 least you come to the point that the 859 00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:48,109 quote-unquote Bible is far from 860 00:36:56,099 --> 00:36:52,000 infallible is filled with so many 861 00:36:58,059 --> 00:36:56,109 contradictions mistranslations 862 00:37:01,150 --> 00:36:58,069 reinterpretations that it would be 863 00:37:04,059 --> 00:37:01,160 impossible for anyone to say that that 864 00:37:08,260 --> 00:37:04,069 is the word of this historical being 865 00:37:11,740 --> 00:37:08,270 called Jesus so here's the question what 866 00:37:16,539 --> 00:37:11,750 does it mean that near-death experiences 867 00:37:19,210 --> 00:37:16,549 are so strange I think many of us myself 868 00:37:22,180 --> 00:37:19,220 included at times have tried to hold 869 00:37:25,660 --> 00:37:22,190 near-death experience up as some kind of 870 00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:25,670 pure unfiltered account of what lies 871 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:28,910 beyond of some higher dimension but I 872 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:30,770 think it's clear from accounts like this 873 00:37:36,970 --> 00:37:34,130 that that's a very very dangerous 874 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:36,980 position to take and I certainly won't 875 00:37:42,490 --> 00:37:39,650 take it any longer so one question to 876 00:37:45,819 --> 00:37:42,500 tee up and that's it what do you make of 877 00:37:48,190 --> 00:37:45,829 the strangeness of near-death experience 878 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:48,200 accounts of course the place to share 879 00:37:52,089 --> 00:37:49,970 your thoughts on that is through the 880 00:37:56,890 --> 00:37:52,099 skeptical website which you can find at 881 00:37:58,900 --> 00:37:56,900 ske PTI ke o dot com there you can jump 882 00:38:01,690 --> 00:37:58,910 on over the forum leave a comment right 883 00:38:04,329 --> 00:38:01,700 there on the website or find an email or 884 00:38:05,950 --> 00:38:04,339 a Facebook link to me well that's going 885 00:38:08,049 --> 00:38:05,960 to do it for this short little 886 00:38:10,089 --> 00:38:08,059 abbreviated show but I really wanted to 887 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:10,099 slip it in here because it fit in with 888 00:38:14,020 --> 00:38:12,650 the Howard Storm interview and because 889 00:38:16,510 --> 00:38:14,030 it really was one of those moments that 890 00:38:18,430 --> 00:38:16,520 I felt like the skeptic Oh had kind of 891 00:38:20,410 --> 00:38:18,440 shifted me a little bit so in that 892 00:38:23,349 --> 00:38:20,420 respect I really have to thank my guests 893 00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:23,359 in McCormick for doing that and I do 894 00:38:27,370 --> 00:38:25,730 hope if you're at all interested you 895 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:27,380 will check out his website and his 896 00:38:30,940 --> 00:38:29,210 account he tells a great story I got to 897 00:38:32,349 --> 00:38:30,950 tell that and and I'm not saying it's a 898 00:38:35,020 --> 00:38:32,359 story I think it's a real account as 899 00:38:37,870 --> 00:38:35,030 near as I can tell his website is a 900 00:38:38,970 --> 00:38:37,880 glimpse of eternity dot-org so check 901 00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:38,980 that out as well 902 00:38:43,099 --> 00:38:41,510 okay that's going to do it for today